Mastermind Group #2: Electric Boogaloo

[jacob]

Is this one of those things where getting the book is handy if you really want to embrace it?

I suppose it comes down to one's learning style/philosophy and also one's goals. Like whether one wants to learn how it works or whether one just wants to talk about it. In my opinion, if the goal is to actually understand a complicated subject, ten hours with a textbook is worth hundreds of hours of unguided internet googling or debating. This is because a textbook provides a coherent overview of the framework. It shows the forest, whereas internet searches, random articles, and forum debates tend to concentrate on the individual trees that one happens to stumble upon. This is fine if one sees the forest. Otherwise, talking about trees without having ever seen the forest can be an exasperating waste of time.

In short, you need the textbook if you haven't read it. You don't need the textbook, if you have read it. In my opinion, it's not a keeper. Once you understand the system or the skeleton, the internet is a better source of meat.

[grundomatic]

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and takeaways from the meeting.

Whereas for extroverts it's great because they think "damn I could use some socializing" and then they spot someone needing help in the garden. The introvert gets help, has an easy conversational topic, and the extrovert gets the socialization they need.

I appreciate spontaneity structured around activities as well. For extroverts, it certainly seems like the main goal can be just connecting and conversation.

Using the reverse fishbone diagram, yes, the 0th order goal for this extravert is often socializing. I now seek to replace detrimental 1st order effects with beneficial ones. Drinking beer and talking is replaced with walking and talking. More ERE people nearby seems like it will mean a better chance of this happening.

[grundomatic]

Today's topic of conversation in the MMG was "how do exercise and diet fit into your web of goals?" The discussion had a "back to basics" feel to me, in a couple different ways. The first way is that many "classic" examples came up, in that if you have been around the forum or read the book, nothing would be revolutionary. This was actually a good reminder to me, though, that EREers are quite different than the average American. While housework and yardwork aren't going to put anyone in the position to keep up in any burpee competitions, some people my age/income are outsourcing all those activities. I couldn't even imagine. I didn't even consider things like this at first when asked how many hours per day I use my body.

The other way it felt "back to basics" had to do with the "back" part. @DustBowl pointed out that even if I have regressed when it comes to diet and exercise, that having gotten over the mental hurdle sometime in the past is a good place to be. So even if I'm driving all around town right now, at least I don't have to be convinced that walking or biking are legitimate modes of transportation. It's possible to fall back into old (good) habits.

There was also talk of discipline vs stoke vs just designing one's environment.

My favorite tangent was talk about homing pigeons.

[J_]

Basic things
Designing your environment in such way that it helps to reach (parts) of your Wog. Positive reinforcement or negative. Ie: have some kettle bells in your kitchen and use them until your meal or coffee is ready.
If you want to wane yourself from alcohol or sugary things don’t have them in your house (as for possible guests

[dustBowl]

I agree with @grundomatic about the back-to-basics feel of our last meeting. Nothing revolutionary, but it still felt like a worthwhile discussion.

The topic we talked about that I find myself coming back to is environment design - specifically, how to design your personal environment so 'good' processes have minimal friction and 'bad' processes have maximum friction. It's not a new idea (the most basic rule of dieting is to not keep cookies in the house so you're not tempted by them) but I've been considering how you can take it way farther than most of us are will to, even on this forum.

Like, if you want to get in shape, you can make some small atomic-habits style changes so that it's a little bit easier to work out each day. Or you can just sell your car so that your only option for transport is to bike or walk, thereby forcing yourself to rapidly get into better shape*. If you want to spend less time using social media, you can download an app that helps you track the time you spend on your phone, or you can just put your phone in a closet for a month and see what happens.

To most non-ERE people, doing something like getting rid of your car seems crazy and way too hardcore, but we know people who have done it and gotten on just fine. I did it, and it definitely did introduce a lot of friction into my systems - though admittedly, not all of the friction was positive. It made it much harder to go see my friends, for example.

...

I guess the idea of intentionally introducing large amounts of friction into my life systems feels interesting to me... I'm not sure why, maybe because it's unintuitive and the opposite of the way I would default to thinking about lifestyle design?

*This isn't meant to discount the value of little optimizations to your life systems. There's a lot of value to be gained from compounding small improvements. I just find it more interesting to think about the extremes you can take this idea to.

...

My favorite tangent was talk about homing pigeons.

Same

[ertyu]

the idea of intentionally introducing large amounts of friction into my life systems feels interesting to me... I'm not sure why, maybe because it's unintuitive and the opposite of the way I would default to thinking about lifestyle design?

Obligatory mention for non-furniture living, floor sitting/sleeping, and Katy Bowman's idea of deliberately eschewing labor-saving devices

[sodatrain]

Obligatory mention for non-furniture living, floor sitting/sleeping, and Katy Bowman's idea of deliberately eschewing labor-saving devices

Intentionally sat on the floor today for 20 minutes. Trying a new rule... I can only watch YouTube if I'm sitting on the floor! (YT is the "social" app eating the most of my "discretionary" screentime.

[ertyu]

Intentionally sat on the floor today for 20 minutes. Trying a new rule... I can only watch YouTube if I'm sitting on the floor! (YT is the "social" app eating the most of my "discretionary" screentime.

Suggested addition: you must get up and sit down without using your hands

My balance and limberness improved after 1-2 months of doing this

[sodatrain]

Suggested addition: you must get up and sit down without using your hands

My balance and limberness improved after 1-2 months of doing this

Yes! I just finally did this for the first time the other day. It was ... shocking to realize how hard that has become. But with the help of my slightly younger partner, we practiced and I did it. It's the perfect addition. Thank you for suggesting it. It's very difficult for me, but I can do it. Thankfully I'm starting now and not in 5 years. I'm very optimistic that this will be very good for restoring and then preserving some mobility.

[sodatrain]

We had a session over the weekend. We discussed had a loosely structured discussion about Wheaton Levels. @grundomatic, who is always carrying the torch organizing and facilitating our group, offered the following questions/discussion points to get things started

-Original purpose of table
-How accurately has it described your journey? Short personal history can go here
-Abuse of the table/model--what should we not do with the table?
-Anyone have any stories of effectively using it as intended?

I found the discussion interesting and helpful. The main takeaway I had, which may not be that interesting to the rests of the crew here, was related to the "Retirement Goal" column in the table. I shared that the expression of the retirement goal did not resonate with me, while most everything else did. I asked if it was meaningful to the others. Pretty much everyone said it was relevant to them. I realized then that everyone else in the group (that was present) had come to ERE via FIRE. And I did not.

I came to ERE out of looking for a better way to live a more meaningful life and trying to reconcile many things that did not feel right about life. @AH was my entry to ERE. I wish I could remember how I ended up on his blog. Looks like I subscribed in July 2022 maybe? That is the first email newsletter from him I have in my (incomplete) email archive. I emailed him directly in August of 2022 and we started chatting about life, the uncertainty of the future (mostly climate driven), purpose, life etc. It quickly lead to mentions of ERE, The Stoa and, community building, and MMG's.

One of the things that @AH said to me (I read) early on (in my knowing him) that I think of often is "Collapse now, and avoid the rush". That might be the summary of how I got to ERE. A strategy for resiliency. Anti-fragility?

So... for whatever that is worth. There is a non-FIRE route/onramp to ERE that can be explored to grow the community. @Jacob/@AH - have you thought about being a guest on Nate Hagens Podcast: The Great Simplification?

[jacob]

@Jacob/@AH - have you thought about being a guest on Nate Hagens Podcast: The Great Simplification?

Yes, @AH thought about it and he even emailed Hagens suggesting that I be a guest. Never heard back.

TBH, I don't really follow the podcast (I don't subscribe to any podcasts. Just not a fan of the format.). Back in the day (about a decade years before Hagens arrived on the scene), the collapse-o-sphere was already split, as it is now, into a part that was mainly theoretical and a [much smaller] part that was mainly practical. I gravitated towards the practical (praxis!). It's my impression---perhaps wrongly due to only having listened to a few episodes, mainly the ones with Schmactenberger---that Hagens leans more theoretical. I don't have very much to offer in terms of rehashing the same old EROI arguments beyond "yeah, doesn't everybody know all this already? ... at some point one should stop talking and start doing" It's a tricky thing to navigate though. A few years ago, I did an interview with Joshua Sheets about resilience. I had high expectations, but he mostly wanted to talk about "what securities to invest in" and "how to get passports in other countries". There are Wheaton levels... and I'm out of touch with most mainstream/beginner-audiences. Not the one to hire for a TEDx talk anymore. It's been too long.

[sodatrain]

Makes sense. A little dissapointing that there was no response, but I guess that is the way it goes. He seems to have a long queue of episodes. If I listen at this point, it's more the shorter form "Frankly" episodes he puts out. My thinking was that there is alignment between what I think your original goal was (save the world... thru reduced consumption/consumerism?!) and what he is talking about. I would imagine that his audience would grove on what we have going on here in our community. I have a general rule of not "interacting" with any social media I consume - no likes/comments. Maybe I'll drop some mentions of ERE in his future videos he publishes.

[AxelHeyst]

I think while Hagen's content tends to be more theoretical/high level, he does bring on some guests who talk more practical/what can we do type content, and he always ends his episodes asking guests what people can do in their lives. I seems that he talks more about wanting to have practical information rather than actually generating or disseminating practical information, but there is a desire there at least. I pushed on that angle when I emailed him and while he responded politely to me, yeah, no invitation to DLJ yet. I need more mileage/chops under my belt before I'd pitch myself at him (the quality/accomplishment level of his guests is several levels above where I'm at now) but maybe one day. Stretch goals.